Daniel:
In earlier centuries, there was no standardized spelling for names. The Pastor was guided by how the name was pronounced. That's why 'Claus', 'Clauss' and 'Klaus' are all synonyms and a short form of Niklaus. Nicknames usually differ more or less clearly from the actual first name and are still created according to loose rules, even today.
According to Geneanet Elsbeth Leuthert died 19.05.1655.
According to Geneanet Barbara Kunz died 21.10.1657.
264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob
Post by Wolf » Wed 27. Nov 2024, 16:44
Rudolf Sidler, ≈ Ottenbach 04.06.1615, Sohn des Niklaus und der Barbara Sigrist, ■ Ottenbach 30.03.1693
ooIII Ottenbach 02.02.1658
Anna Grob, ≈ Ottenbach 11.11.1632, Tochter des Thomas und der (oo Ottenbach 01.03.1618) Elisabeth Schneebeli, ■ Ottenbach 24.03.1700
Kinder: (Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse, 1670 1678, 1682, 1689 und 1695 mit Ergänzungen)
13.02.1659 Ulrich (im BV 1682 genannt, 1689 nicht mehr)
27.09.1661 Fridli ooI [§], ooII Ottenbach 26.11.1700 Verena Frei
21.06.1663 Caspar oo 1706 Anna Wyder (=262-2-3-8)
07.11.1665 Anneli
01.09.1667 Klein Anneli
02.11.1669 Jogeli
10.10.1671 Vreneli
28.05.1674 Regeli oo Ottenbach 01.02.1707 Hans Bär, +1746
Kinder aus der 2. Ehe (oo Ottenbach 14.06.1653) mit Barbara Kunz (+1657):
02.04.1654 Elsbeth oo Ottenbach 12.08.1679 Felix Sidler
22.07.1655 Thryna (1682 genannt, 1689 nicht mehr: ziemlich sicher oo Ottenbach 15.01.1684 Jakob Gneser)
08.03.1657 Melcher oo Ottenbach 10.02.1685 Adelheid (Adli) Buchmann
Kinder aus der 1. Ehe (wann / wo?) mit Elsbeth Leuthert (ca.1602-1652): Barbara (*1641), Heinrich (*1644), Margaretha (*1648) - im Bevölkerungsberzeichnis 1649 wird nur noch Barbeli (8-jährig) genannt
Wolf:
4. Jun [1615]
E(ltern): Claus Sÿdler, Barbel Sigeristin
K(ind): Rudolff
Z(eugen): Rudolff Gutt zu Lunneren / Elßbeth Stelin, Hans Rudis Thochter.
Daniel:
Wolsen is part of Obfelden: Grob have been citizens of Obfelden as well (was a widespread name).
Thomas could still have been born in Ottenbach: have you checked his baptismal entry?
Wolf:
According to Geneanet Barbara Kunz died 21.10.1657.
Anna Grob was born on 11 November 1632, in Ottenbach, Zürich, Switzerland as the daughter of Thomas Grob and ?. She married Rudj Sydler on 2 February 1658, in Ottenbach, Zürich, Switzerland. They were the parents of 4 sons and 4 daughters. Anna died in 1700, at the age of 68.
Research:
Wolf:
According to Geneanet Rudolf has been married three times. His son Melcher (08.03.1657) on the BV 1795 confirms the existence of a second marriage. I feel it would be worth it to search for entries of Rudolf with his first and second wife in earlier BVs.
Children:
1. Ulrich Sidler 1659 -
2. Fridlj Sidler 1661 m Verena Frei
3. Caspar Sidler b 1663 m Anna Wyder
4. Anna Sidler b 1665
5. KlynAnna Sidler b 1667
6. Jacob Sidler b 1669
7. Verena Sidler b 1671
8. Regula Sidler b 1674-1746 m Hans Bar
Post by Wolf » Wed 27. Nov 2024, 16:44
Rudolf Sidler, ≈ Ottenbach 04.06.1615, Sohn des Niklaus und der Barbara Sigrist, ■ Ottenbach 30.03.1693
ooIII Ottenbach 02.02.1658
Anna Grob, ≈ Ottenbach 11.11.1632, Tochter des Thomas und der (oo Ottenbach 01.03.1618) Elisabeth Schneebeli, ■ Ottenbach 24.03.1700
Kinder: (Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse, 1670 1678, 1682, 1689 und 1695 mit Ergänzungen)
13.02.1659 Ulrich (im BV 1682 genannt, 1689 nicht mehr)
27.09.1661 Fridli ooI [§], ooII Ottenbach 26.11.1700 Verena Frei
21.06.1663 Caspar oo 1706 Anna Wyder (=262-2-3-8)
07.11.1665 Anneli
01.09.1667 Klein Anneli
02.11.1669 Jogeli
10.10.1671 Vreneli
28.05.1674 Regeli oo Ottenbach 01.02.1707 Hans Bär, +1746
Kinder aus der 2. Ehe (oo Ottenbach 14.06.1653) mit Barbara Kunz (+1657):
02.04.1654 Elsbeth oo Ottenbach 12.08.1679 Felix Sidler
22.07.1655 Thryna (1682 genannt, 1689 nicht mehr: ziemlich sicher oo Ottenbach 15.01.1684 Jakob Gneser)
08.03.1657 Melcher oo Ottenbach 10.02.1685 Adelheid (Adli) Buchmann
Kinder aus der 1. Ehe (wann / wo?) mit Elsbeth Leuthert (ca.1602-1652): Barbara (*1641), Heinrich (*1644), Margaretha (*1648) - im Bevölkerungsberzeichnis 1649 wird nur noch Barbeli (8-jährig) genannt
Translation using DeepL
264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob
Post by Wolf “ Wed 27 Nov 2024, 16:44
Rudolf Sidler, ≈ Ottenbach 04.06.1615, son of Niklaus and Barbara Sigrist, ■ Ottenbach 30.03.1693
ooIII Ottenbach 02.02.1658
Anna Grob, ≈ Ottenbach 11.11.1632, daughter of Thomas and (oo Ottenbach 01.03.1618) Elisabeth Schneebeli, ■ Ottenbach 24.03.1700
Children: (population registers, 1670 1678, 1682, 1689 and 1695 with additions)
13.02.1659 Ulrich (named in the BV 1682, no longer in 1689)
27.09.1661 Fridli ooI [§], ooII Ottenbach 26.11.1700 Verena Frei
21.06.1663 Caspar oo 1706 Anna Wyder (=262-2-3-8)
07.11.1665 Anneli
01.09.1667 Little Anneli
02.11.1669 Jogeli
10.10.1671 Vreneli
28.05.1674 Regeli oo Ottenbach 01.02.1707 Hans Bär, +1746
Children from the 2nd marriage (oo Ottenbach 14.06.1653) with Barbara Kunz (+1657):
02.04.1654 Elsbeth oo Ottenbach 12.08.1679 Felix Sidler
22.07.1655 Thryna (named 1682, 1689 no longer: almost certainly oo Ottenbach 15.01.1684 Jakob Gneser)
08.03.1657 Melcher oo Ottenbach 10.02.1685 Adelheid (Adli) Buchmann
Children from the 1st marriage (when / where?) with Elsbeth Leuthert (ca.1602-1652): Barbara (*1641), Heinrich (*1644), Margaretha (*1648) - in the population register 1649 only Barbeli (8-year-old) is mentioned
[According to the marriage entry from 1700, both partners are widowed. On the internet, the first wife of Fridli Sidler is Barbara Steheli (without source reference). The only marriage of a couple with these names takes place on 12.10.1641 in Ottenbach - which obviously does not fit with a groom born in 1661 (see also 132-5). Alternatively, he could have married an Anna Maria Nägeli as Friedrich on 04.04.1693 in Ottenbach (or Kilchberg?)
Documents related to Rudolf Sidler:
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| 1615 Rudolf Sidler baptism 4 June father Claus, mother Barbel Higerist Ottenbach film 008014328 page 81 |
4. Jun [1615]
E(ltern): Claus Sÿdler, Barbel Sigeristin
K(ind): Rudolff
Z(eugen): Rudolff Gutt zu Lunneren / Elßbeth Stelin, Hans Rudis Thochter.
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| 1626 Elsbeth Leüthart marriage to Rudolf Sidler 2 May Ottenbach film 0080142328 page 103 |
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| 1632 Anna Grob 11 November baptism film Ottenbach page 124 |
Transcription:
E. Thoma Grob von Wolsen Elsi Schneeblin
K. Anna
Z. Felix Wydler Fridlis Sun, Anna Guttin
Hans Gutten zu ? Thoch
E. Thoma Grob von Wolsen Elsi Schneeblin
K. Anna
Z. Felix Wydler Fridlis Sun, Anna Guttin
Hans Gutten zu ? Thoch
Translation:
parents Thomas Grob from Wolsen Elisabeth Schneebeli
child Anna
witnesses Felix Wydler Fridolin's son, Anna Gut
daughter of Hans Gut from ?
parents Thomas Grob from Wolsen Elisabeth Schneebeli
child Anna
witnesses Felix Wydler Fridolin's son, Anna Gut
daughter of Hans Gut from ?
Wolf:
Hans Gutten zu ? Thoch
I would interpret the location as Tunßen (today Toussen) - and the last word as Thocht(er) … would fit the groom from Wolsen.
Wolf:I would interpret the location as Tunßen (today Toussen) - and the last word as Thocht(er) … would fit the groom from Wolsen.
Wolsen is part of Obfelden: Grob have been citizens of Obfelden as well (was a widespread name).
Thomas could still have been born in Ottenbach: have you checked his baptismal entry?
 |
| Tunßen (today Toussen) |
Part of the municipality of Obfelden, founded in 1847, on the edge of the Reuss valley. Roman settlement remains in Unterlunnern bear witness to a prehistoric settlement in the area. Settlement of the area. The settlement developed into a hamlet in the late Middle Ages, which belonged to the parish of Ottenbach before the municipality was divided. [2]
Politically, Obfelden is the youngest municipality in Affoltern, though settlements in the area date back to the Alemannic-Franconian period in the 5th century AD. Early activity coalesced around five hamlets: Bickwil (first mentioned in 1246 as Bickewilare), Oberlunnern and Unterlunnern (1257 Lundenerun and Lunderun inferioris), Wolsen (1311 Wolunsun), and Toussen (1325 Thunsen).[3]These five hamlets were known collectively as being ob dem Feld ("over the field") from neighbouring Ottenbach; most fell under the jurisdiction of Maschwanden, although Toussen and part of Unterlunnern came under the Zürich Freiamt. Both of these areas were merged into Knonau (today's Affoltern district) in the sixteenth century, when the hamlets of Obfelden became a part of the nearby parish of Ottenbach.[3] (Wikipedia)
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| 1649 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach Rudolf Sidler-Eliz Leuthert first wife and 8 yr old daughter Barbara film 008126304 page 139 |
 |
| 1653 Elisbeth Leüthart death 19 May hus. Rudi Sidler Ottenbach page 171 First wife of Rudolf Sidler |
Death entry Elisabeth Leuthert.
This double page is confusing at first sight - not in chronological order! Left baptisms 1657 - right deaths beginning 1647. Remember - some time ago we had discussed that you couldn't find burial entries 1647-1658?
This double page is confusing at first sight - not in chronological order! Left baptisms 1657 - right deaths beginning 1647. Remember - some time ago we had discussed that you couldn't find burial entries 1647-1658?
Here they are: page 171left = bapt 1656 / 171right = deaths 1647-1653 / 172both = deaths 1654-1657 / next page I have = 185 = baptisms 1658-1659. Pages 171right and 172left are a different hand - possibly written by someone else retrospectively(?).
What do we find on page 173?
Now for Elisabeth Leuthert:
The entry just before is Verena Freÿin … den [day cut off] tag hornung anno (16)53.
The entry just following is Anna Paürin … den 15. Julij.
Next one Anna Müllerin … den 27. 9bis anno (19)53.
With Elßi Leuthartin Rudli Sÿdlers frauw zu Ottenbach starb den 19. tag Maÿens no year is given - but from the context it has to be 19.05.1653. This means he married again less than a month after his first wife's death.
Now for Elisabeth Leuthert:
The entry just before is Verena Freÿin … den [day cut off] tag hornung anno (16)53.
The entry just following is Anna Paürin … den 15. Julij.
Next one Anna Müllerin … den 27. 9bis anno (19)53.
With Elßi Leuthartin Rudli Sÿdlers frauw zu Ottenbach starb den 19. tag Maÿens no year is given - but from the context it has to be 19.05.1653. This means he married again less than a month after his first wife's death.
Deepl
Death entry Elisabeth Leuthert.
This double page is confusing at first glance - not in chronological order! Baptisms 1657 on the left - deaths from 1647 on the right. Do you remember - some time ago we discussed that you could not find the death entries 1647-1658? Here they are: page 171left = baptisms 1656 / 171right = deaths 1647-1653 / 172both = deaths 1654-1657 / next page I have = 185 = baptisms 1658-1659. Pages 171right and 172left are in a different hand - possibly written later by someone else(?). What do we find on page 173?
Now to Elisabeth Leuthert:
The entry just before this is Verena Freÿin ... den [Tag abgeschnitten] (day cut off) tag hornung anno (16)53.
The entry directly after that is Anna Paürin ... den 15. Julij.
The next entry is Anna Müllerin ... den 27. 9bis anno (19)53.
No year is given for Elßi Leuthartin Rudli Sÿdlers frauw zu Ottenbach starb den 19. tag Maÿens - but from the context it must be 19.05.1653. This means that he remarried less than a month after the death of his first wife.
Kent:
This double page is confusing at first glance - not in chronological order! Baptisms 1657 on the left - deaths from 1647 on the right. Do you remember - some time ago we discussed that you could not find the death entries 1647-1658? Here they are: page 171left = baptisms 1656 / 171right = deaths 1647-1653 / 172both = deaths 1654-1657 / next page I have = 185 = baptisms 1658-1659. Pages 171right and 172left are in a different hand - possibly written later by someone else(?). What do we find on page 173?
Now to Elisabeth Leuthert:
The entry just before this is Verena Freÿin ... den [Tag abgeschnitten] (day cut off) tag hornung anno (16)53.
The entry directly after that is Anna Paürin ... den 15. Julij.
The next entry is Anna Müllerin ... den 27. 9bis anno (19)53.
No year is given for Elßi Leuthartin Rudli Sÿdlers frauw zu Ottenbach starb den 19. tag Maÿens - but from the context it must be 19.05.1653. This means that he remarried less than a month after the death of his first wife.
 |
| 1657 Barbel Kuntzin burial 21 Oct film 008014328 page 172 Second wife of Rudolf Sidler |
 |
| 1658 Rudi Sydler marriage to Anna Grob 2 Feb Ottenbach film page 346 |
1658
den 2. tag Februarij
Rudj Sydler Clausen Sohn zu Otenbach
Anna Grobin von Wolsen
1658
On the second day of February
Rudi (Rudolph) Sydler son of (Ni)klaus from Otenbach
Anna Grob (the ending 'in' was added to feminize the surname) from Wolsen (part of Obfelden, Affoltern am Albis ZH)
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| 1670 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach Rudi Sidler and Anna Grob Ottenbach film 007765846 page 382 |
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| 1678 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach film 008126303 page 469 |
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| 1682 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach film 008126301 page 737 |
1682 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach film 008126301 page 737
Well written, clear and easy to decipher. 10 children in all!
No children listed for Elsbeth Leuthert who died in 1652
Barbara Kuntz has two children: can't read the first one and Melchior
The other eight are Anna Grob who married in 1658. Everyone is going to church except Anna Grob!
Kent:Well written, clear and easy to decipher. 10 children in all!
No children listed for Elsbeth Leuthert who died in 1652
Barbara Kuntz has two children: can't read the first one and Melchior
The other eight are Anna Grob who married in 1658. Everyone is going to church except Anna Grob!
1682: Barbara Kuntz has two children: can't read the first one and Melchior.
Wolf:
I had problems as well - decided in "Tryna" - fortunatly in 1670 it is easier to read: Thrina = Catharina.
Thank you for these images - I have added all new info to 264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob.
Kent: I am very interested in the line just above his name??????? Who is that?
Wolf: Anna Gneeserin, Jogli Stierlis sel. Witwen, Vide Supra. [see above]
Ottenbach 10.06.1656: Stierli, Jakob, Ottenbach, getraut mit Gneser, Anna, Ottenbach.
Looks like Anna Gneser, widow of Jakob Stierli, lived in household LXXXII, together with Rudolf Sidler and his family. On the other hand we have her mentioned a few pages earlier (p. 641) in household LIV (b. 30.11.1634) with children
28.01.1668 Hanß Jogeli
18.07.1669 Melcherli
16.07.1671 Vreneli / plus likely married sons
03.06.1658 Jogeli, Schneider, oo Klein Vrena Seidler - with daughter Margerethli - in LV
14.04.1660 Heini, oo Klein Bärbel Seidler - with son Hanß Jacob - in LVI
Question: What's going on? Possibly (might be far fetched!) she used to live in LXXXII together with husband and children. As widow with at least two sons married she might have moved to smaller premises with the smaller children - but still kept a room in her old house (????).
Wolf: I had problems as well - decided in "Tryna" - fortunatly in 1670 it is easier to read: Thrina = Catharina.
Thank you for these images - I have added all new info to 264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob.
 |
| 1689 Ottenbach Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse page 338 |
Wolf: Anna Gneeserin, Jogli Stierlis sel. Witwen, Vide Supra. [see above]
Ottenbach 10.06.1656: Stierli, Jakob, Ottenbach, getraut mit Gneser, Anna, Ottenbach.
Looks like Anna Gneser, widow of Jakob Stierli, lived in household LXXXII, together with Rudolf Sidler and his family. On the other hand we have her mentioned a few pages earlier (p. 641) in household LIV (b. 30.11.1634) with children
28.01.1668 Hanß Jogeli
18.07.1669 Melcherli
16.07.1671 Vreneli / plus likely married sons
03.06.1658 Jogeli, Schneider, oo Klein Vrena Seidler - with daughter Margerethli - in LV
14.04.1660 Heini, oo Klein Bärbel Seidler - with son Hanß Jacob - in LVI
Question: What's going on? Possibly (might be far fetched!) she used to live in LXXXII together with husband and children. As widow with at least two sons married she might have moved to smaller premises with the smaller children - but still kept a room in her old house (????).
Now I can learn from you: what stands "Sunday Cal" for - why 1 Sep?
Daniel:
Daniel:
The Roman calendar has some special formulations when it comes to a specific date:
calendae -> first day of the month: cal. sept. = calendae septembris = September 1
nonae -> fifth day of the month (but the seventh day in March, May, July and October!)
idus -> thirteenth day of the month (but the fifteenth day in March, May, July and October!)
pridie -> the day immediately before: pridie idus septembris = September 12th
ultimus -> last day of the month. As far as I know, this formulation is not part of the Roman calendar. It was used by the pastors who wrote the entries in Latin.
How would Obelix put it? They're crazy, these Romans! 🤣
@Kent Gardiner I hope you are familiar with this comic album series. If not: check out this Wikipedia site!
calendae -> first day of the month: cal. sept. = calendae septembris = September 1
nonae -> fifth day of the month (but the seventh day in March, May, July and October!)
idus -> thirteenth day of the month (but the fifteenth day in March, May, July and October!)
pridie -> the day immediately before: pridie idus septembris = September 12th
ultimus -> last day of the month. As far as I know, this formulation is not part of the Roman calendar. It was used by the pastors who wrote the entries in Latin.
How would Obelix put it? They're crazy, these Romans! 🤣
@Kent Gardiner I hope you are familiar with this comic album series. If not: check out this Wikipedia site!
Wolf:
I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year.
Her parents had married 01.02.1622 - explains the "hand vor d(er) Zytt ghan …". Whilst I cannot decipher the last word - it must mean intercourse … before the time (of the marriage).
Wolf:
Her parents had married 01.02.1622 - explains the "hand vor d(er) Zytt ghan …". Whilst I cannot decipher the last word - it must mean intercourse … before the time (of the marriage).
Wolf:
Am I missing something? What is the connection between Anna Gneser and Rudolf Sidler? (She lived with Rudolf, see above)
Now I can learn from you: what stands "Sunday Cal" for - why 1 Sep?
Wolf:
Now I can learn from you: what stands "Sunday Cal" for - why 1 Sep?
Wolf:
I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year.
Her parents had married 01.02.1622 - explains the "hand vor d(er) Zytt ghan …". Whilst I cannot decipher the last word - it must mean intercourse … before the time (of the marriage).
Kent: Her parents had married 01.02.1622 - explains the "hand vor d(er) Zytt ghan …". Whilst I cannot decipher the last word - it must mean intercourse … before the time (of the marriage).
... I looked for her [Anna Gneser] death on the 29th Nov 1689 without success.
Wolf:
I had written "I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year." about the baptismal entry 1622 you had suggested … "same year" is this Anna's year of birth: 1622 ! The Anna you are looking for died after 1689 (or whenever exactly this BV was written up) - at least I don't have a death date.
Wolf:
Wolf:
I had written "I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year." about the baptismal entry 1622 you had suggested … "same year" is this Anna's year of birth: 1622 ! The Anna you are looking for died after 1689 (or whenever exactly this BV was written up) - at least I don't have a death date.
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| Anna Gneser married Jakob Stierli |
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| 1622 Anna Gneser bap 1 Sep, father Jacob, mother Madlena Steiner Ottenbach page 87 |
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| 1693 Rudi Sidler burial 30 March Ottenbach film 008014328 page 385 |
Wolf:
den 30. Mertz [1693]
Rudi Seidler, Clausen S(ohn) v(on) Ottenbach
Unfortunately I haven't got a clue what the characters(?) in front of the names indicate.
 |
| 1695 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis Rudi Sidler and Anna Grob with their son Caspar Sidler b 21 June 1663 film 008014130 page 475 Hans Jakob Sidler's father is Caspar and gf Rudolph Sidler deceased |
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| 1700 Anna Grob burial 24 March Ottenbach page 389 |
1700 - den 24. Merz
Anna Grobin Rudj Sÿdlers Klausen S(elig) witfr(au) aet [but no age written]
Anna Grobin Rudj Sÿdlers Klausen S(elig) witfr(au) aet [but no age written]
